aphanon_meme | part 353 whalers on the moon

part 353 whalers on the moon

We've been here over a year now! I can hardly believe it! Dreamwidth's been pretty good, I'd say, with almost no downtime to speak of and all that! Anyway... how is your spring going? Or I guess it's almost summer, isn't it? Hopefully it's been well! I've been catching up on work and new movies, all very exciting stuff, I'm sure.

Enjoy part 353!

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Any history anons, about? I've been reading about breasts and cleavage in historical fashion and there are websites basically saying that it was fashionable for women to show nipples at certain points in history (either bare or through translucent clothes) or even bare their breasts with extremely low cut gowns. I thought that baring breasts was just something done in paintings... is this true? not true?

wasn't there a comic or episode where hungary asks ukraine to wear such a gown? from crete?

well

yes and no and kind of?

décolletage (aka gowns with low cuts) were pretty popular at certain points throughout the 1400s to the late 1700s.

http://www.gogmsite.net/_Media/ca-1615-1620-elizabeth-grey_med.jpeg
http://www.gogmsite.net/_Media/1605-anne-of-denmark-by_med.jpeg
http://www.gogmsite.net/_Media/1654_anne_bulwer_by_gerar-2.jpeg
http://www.gogmsite.net/_Media/1675ca-hortense-mancini_med.jpeg

I've a few websites where people say that court women wore dresses that fully exposed their breasts, but I've never seen any concrete evidence that this occurred outside of the women being painted with bare breasts or very low necklines. It was common for women, even noble women, to be painted with nipples showing or breasts showing in the 15th to about the late 18th century (though nipples were more popular than entirely bared breasts in the late 18th century). Especially if they were being painted as mythological figures or if the paintings were intended as private gifts. Showing breasts or nipples could also be a way to represent femininity and purity: in the late 17th century it was more common for mistresses and "loose women" to bare both breasts, with one breast or one nipple bared usually being a symbol for purity and grace.

In the 18th century, there are fashion plates with nipples showing: http://www.ekduncan.com/2012/03/naughty-side-of-18th-century-french.html And there are also many portraits of women, even very upper class women, with nipples peaking out. (Many of these fashion plates were censored when they were republished during the Victorian era.)

But there is no definite proof that women wore gowns with nipples showing while they were out and about. Fashion plates were art just as much as they were advertisements and the 18th century equivalent of fashion magazines, and a nipple showing was a way to highlight the softness of the breast and get a little wink wink to the viewer.

Some 18th century paintings show fichus and shawls worn with low cut dresses: http://www.gogmsite.net/reign-of-louis-xvi/subalbum-elisabeth-philippi/1782-madame-elisabeth-by-el.html which I think was more likely than nipples hanging out.

A lot of it, too, is up to personal morals and taste. And it wasn't one size fits all. Marie Antoinette for example was very modest and would only bathe wearing dressing gowns--but she has a few portraits with low décolletage, too, and even a miniature supposed to be her with a bare breast.

Breasts were not viewed as exceptionally taboo until the Victorian era. The fact that most modern historical films/visual depictions act like most people in ye olden times were exceptional prudes probably doesn't help. Cleavage was common back in the day, and nudity in paintings was nothing unusual. As for breasts hanging out with regular fashion, idk, but I wouldn't be surprised if nipples made an appearance.

and speaking of history being written by the future: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-demonization-of-empress-wu-20743091/?no-ist

Sighs of course it's the Victorian times

THOSE. VICTORIANS.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like most women walked around with their breasts hanging out but exposing cleavage was pretty common for a few hundred years. During certain eras (that sweet sweet directory period in France) transparent gowns was in vogue for a tweeny weeny bit! But those. Victorians.*

*well in France it was Napoleon&co who didn't like the outlandish directory fashions but still

And stop sleeping around when I'm away, too.

You know what Napoleon

if ladies want to wear dresses that show off their pert nipples who are you to deny them their LIBERTY

[CODE NAPOLEON'D]

Sorry, I'm a misogynist douche from the 19th century, women are not people.

Edited 2014-06-23 20:27 (UTC)

Clearly you have not spent much time with any women.

[He was a bit of a femenist.]

It's not about quantity, it's about quality.

And I love women. Ask my mistresses. Especially the Polish one.

[Napoleon Bonaparte more like Dudepoleon Bronaparte.]

The quality of your mistresses must have been physical and not mental.

What Frenchman doesn't love women? Loving them is not the same as valuing them for more than their beauty. I have found they are quite adept at politics and economics.

[He's had more meaningful conversations with women in Paris than he has with men.]

Well that's one of the many the reasons why I run this whole military dictatorship thing better than you.

[He gets kudos when he shoots angry mobs while you get to flee France. Watch out for the Napoleon Propaganda Machine.]

Edited 2014-06-24 14:55 (UTC)

Ah but that is because you desire to control the populace instead of working with it. We have had this discussion before, mon petite general.

[He's the one everyone turns to when they realize living under your rule isn't as great as it seems after a few years. He outlives most of the governments, so he'll take that over ruling the country anyday.]

Some dresses were quite low cut mon ami but our queen dressed quite modestly so many other ladies of high rank followed her example. Depending on their preference - or profession - they may have shown more or less of their breasts. It certainly was more conservative by the time I was an old man. Personally, I prefer the low necklines with the guazy fichu. A bit of mystery is always fun.

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part 353 whalers on the moon

huh.

Re: huh.

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GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: GET DRESSED JOSÉPHINE! YOU'RE NOT A MERVEILLEUSE!

Re: huh.